3-ring C.S. bullets

paydirt

paydirt

Established Users
What is a good way to tell a CS 3-ring bullet from a 3-ring US bullet. Some are so close its hard to tell them apart. I am fairly new to ID-ing bullets ,but not to finding them . I have been relic hunting for alot of years and just holding on to all my stuff.I have about 350 Bullets in my collection now and ALL from Gettysburg. Now I am trying to ID all of them...Whew!! The 3 ring are the most difficult.
 
Hi paydirt
To address your specific question of how to tell a CS three groove bullet from a US three groove bullet, you really can’t with any certainty. Generally many CS three groove bullets are nose cast types but not exclusively. There are too many variable circumstances that would affect witch side actually used the bullet. After all that really defines if a bullet is CS or US, note the case of captured ammunition. As far as witch side originally made the bullet many certainties can be made. Many three grooves have distinctive profiles enough to be attributed either to an arsenal or particular group of infantry. Washington, Springfield, Selma and Fayetteville arsenal bullets stand out as unique pattern profiles. Many of us have recently discussed just what qualifies as a unique three ring pattern. When you get down to it no two bullets are the same! So it is left up to you as how far you want to go with identifying one from another. One of our members said he separates then by cavity variations. This made some since until other member pointed out the interchangeability of cavity plugs amongst different mold profiles. Understanding this you come to realize the combination is infinite. The only sure way to know if a bullet is CS or US in use is if you know the recovery location and if it can be documented as used by one or the other sides exclusively. The fact that your bullets come from Gettysburg may be a determining factor to use. In most cases collectors simply call a three groove bullet a three groove bullet. Separating by caliber is a must and the fabrication method used is of importance, nose, lip, side cast, press cast, compressed, and machined justify different classifications in my opinion. Before you start to classify your three grooves inventory be clear as to how you want your classification to reflect or you will change your mind in mid stream. Believe me I know! Good luck with the sorting! Danny
 
3 rings

Thank you so much for your helpful reply,In some places I hunted ,I dug nothing but Gardner bullets ,then in the same area out come 3 ring bullets.I have some nose cast ,teat base etc... I do know those bullets,but the others..are the ones which get confusing. I will take your advice...Thanks again...Paydirt
 
Danny

I agree. I think it is very important to make that point that CSA and USA 3-ringers are essnetially the same group of bullets, barring a few exceptions.

Nice post.
 
Very good advise on deciding on how you want to classify your 3 ring bullets. I think I've started over about four times now; a real pain if you keep good records on what is in each display case, etc.

Danny, it would be a great help if you or someone would elaborate on the press cast, compressed, and machined methods of manufacturing bullets. Just a brief description of the procedure and what to look for to distinguish them from each other.Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Ernie
 
Hi Ernie
Here is a little diagram that I made as a reference when I catalog bullets into my collection. I am no authority on the subject but I think the press cast is done with a regular two sided mold but without the cavity plug. The cavity is formed by a punch that is accommodated by the mold and struck with brute force. A mechanical assembly set up no doubt. These molds were probably base cast leaving little traces of mold seams.

The compressed method was used to make the English import Enfield plug base bullets as well as domestically made bullets I believe. Lead wire of I guess .5 inch diameter would be cut to lengths of about an inch to make the starting slug. These slugs were fed into cold mold shaped to the desired profile design. A ram with the plug or cavity shape was compressed from the rear to basically mash the slug into the finished shape. These rams had the various base markings if any that are found in the Enfields. This process was completely mechanically automated and the bullets were pushed through a swaging dye to ensure correct caliber sizing. That’s why a lot of import Enfield bullets are so consistent in length and width. Note that these were original armory munitions and the Enfield rifles slated for export were issued with an accompanying cone cavity bullet mold that accounts for the majority of Enfields found in North America.

The machine turned bullet used a generically cast bullet form and then turned on a lathe to cut the finished profile and grooves. Typically a stencil plate was used by the lathe to repeat the same cut time after time. The bullets nose fit into a cone shaped spindle leaving the tell tale nose cap looking shape, it’s where the cutting tool could not cut but it was the bullets tip and did not matter if it was more crude than the rest of the body. The bullets base fit onto a pointed spindle that sometimes left the five and six pointed star marks found in the MM343 thru MM348. Note the MM596 made in the same method but without any base spindle markings. The term swaged in really not correct, swaging is passing a bullet thru a calibrated dye to create uniform sizing. A better term is machined or turned. Other examples of the machine turned bullet are the so called Prussian patters, MM283 thru MM290 and the three groove MM410. Note that Tom Stelma says that there are three groove machined bullets with no grooves in 54, 577 and 69 caliber. They are commonly mistaken for Enfield patterns, why no grooves, I don’t have any idea.

Another fabrication process used for the Gardner, Fagan and Tom Green Enfields was what I call nose cast skirted and compressed. The so called insert was actually cast as the bullets base with a corresponding skirt around it. A paper tube for the powder was inserted between the inner and outer skirts and then compressed in a mechanical press to crimp the skirt and cone base together also forming the grooves at the same time. This is pretty much all I know about the subject and I may be wrong about some of it. I’m sure someone will point it out for me! Later gator. Danny
 
Thanks Danny for taking the time on this one. It's much appreciated. Not everyone uses the same terms for the same process and this really helps to bring it all together.

Regards,
Ernie
 
Hey Paydirt
How are you recording your bullet collection? On the computer I assume. If so are you using the Microsoft Excel program? It’s what I use and I find it easy and useful when you change your mind about formatting your information. I keep six different files, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, groove bullets and one for Enfields. I have a blank format that they all use, I will be glad to email it to you if you want. The columns are headed as: part number, caliber, diameter, length, weight, base, cavity, cavity depth, manufacture type, cost, value, and description. All in abbreviated terms of course. The value entry is good for insurance purposes if “God forbid” the house burns down or some creep steal your stuff. All the different headings are nice for easy searching through your collection for a unique bullet feature. I do this a lot when thinking about buying a bullet to check to see if I all ready have a similar one. Real hand when dealing with unlisted bullets! Most importantly, back up your files regularly to a disk! Any how good luck on the project. Danny
 
3 rings

Hi Danny and thanks for your help. Right now I am not using anything To record my bullets ,I am new to IDing bullets and really just experimenting different ways to keep track of them. I have Excel on my computer and it may as well be Japanese,cause I cant understand that either.Right now I am separating them ,grouping them,photographing all of them,etc..But I will sit down and learn this program .To be truthful ...I,d rather be hunting them!!
 
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